The Camera Cafe Show
Dave: Spanning the globe to bring great photographers and their experiences directly to you. It's 5 pm. in Spain, 6 pm. in our guest's home in the Ukraine, and midnight here in Japan. That means it's time for the Camera Café Show, brought to you by professional photographer Tom Jacob and photography enthusiast Dave Payne.
Good evening, Tom. Would you like to welcome our special guest and get things moving?
Tom: Thanks for your magnificent intro, Dave, and welcome everyone to what is the first episode of our podcast adventure, The Camera Café Show. Finally, after some long months of hard planning and work, we have now lifted off, so I hope everybody will enjoy it.
And to start our podcast series today, we invited a special guest in a bit of an emotional photography journey through the eyes of a war photographer, live from the Ukraine, Iva Sidash.
She will present herself to you in a moment, but for those of you who haven't heard of her, Iva is living in the Ukraine, is 28, only started photography at the age of 19, then went on to study photography and got her a degree in 2022. When suddenly from being interested in street photography, she found herself shooting a war in a more documentary way as Russia invaded the Ukraine. She has won competitions, has been published, has been interviewed in international magazines, has her work shown in art galleries around the globe, and has since we started talking to her been asked by UNICEF to join as a photographer.
So that's all to come. So, let's move on. Eva, are you here?
Iva: Yes, I'm here. Hello.
Tom: Welcome to our show, Eva. And thanks so much for joining us today because it hasn't been easy for everybody with a work schedule, to make it happen, but we did it.
Iva: Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.
Tom: No, no, we thank you. Eva, before we get to the interview, how are things there in the Ukraine where you live?
Iva: It's okay. I'm from Western parts of Ukraine. I'm from Lviv. So here it's a little bit safer, as, if I can say like this, cause basically in the country of war, everywhere is dangerous place, but I'm happy that I'm in my home my relatives are fine, friends are fine, so everything is okay.
Tom: Very good to hear this. Eva, for the listeners, just tell us briefly a bit about yourself and how your photography journey began before the Russian invasion.
Iva: Okay. As you mentioned already, I'm in the sphere of photography for four years. I know that it's not much, but since I started in 2019 I devote all my time and myself to photography because I realized that this is something I want to do and I want to follow my this way and it helped me like to understand that I'm in the right place and I'm doing the right things.
So basically, I started as a street photographer and It helped me to realize that I can see the world differently. I can notice the details. I can feel it. I don't know how to say. And what really helped me to become a photographer, I would say I started with the project, which was called one shot each day.
So basically, it was street photography that time. And I was going on the street each and every day and, publishing the best picture of the day on Facebook. I was doing this to the one year, so quite long project and again, every day. So, it helped me to build like new connections with new photographers because before I was like a no name photographer, and it helped me to be involved in these surroundings as much as possible. Also, it helped me to gain like a new vision, to develop my skills and to find new experiences in this.
And after that, I switched to documentary photography because I realized that, actually, I love street photography, this is something very special for me. But documentary practices helped me to go deeper, I would say, to not just observe the objects or subjects but only also to interact with them. And so, I started to work on my own personal project documentary series mostly.
After some time I started to work as a photojournalist for the Ukrainian Media, the Ukrainians. So, I got new experience as a photojournalist, and I was working like a photojournalist, documenting the regular stuff and working on my personal projects, but then full scale of work began, and everything changed dramatically.
I switched to being freelance because I realized that I wanted to be independent, and I wanted to do as much as possible to document my country in war. I wanted to go to the eastern parts, to these parts where war is so intense, where people are in danger, like to help as I can. So, for me, it's very important to be involved in this right now, because I want to be useful for my country and to do what I can do the best. It's photography.
Tom: I understand. You just came back from Kherson, yes?
Iva: Yeah, right.
Tom: How was it there?
Iva: That was tough a little bit because this is like really huge city and region, which was occupied for like a lot of time and now it is liberated, but it is every day under constant shelling.
So, I came there with the and I heard this rocket shelling. Not only rocket, but different kinds of Russian shelling. Really close. And that was I thought I got used to it because I'm working in this sphere for this year, the whole year and even more. But it was strange to see like the peaceful city.
Cause now it's under Ukraine, but still like all this Russian shelling, which are like nonstop and people who do not pay attention on that cause like they got used to it, but every day people are dying there and that's so sad. So that was quite a difficult experience, but I, I'm happy I managed to go over there cause it's a little bit hard to get the access as for now and taking into consideration that this is like quite dangerous part of Ukraine nowadays.
So, but that was good. I went, I document what I could and talk to people. What is really very important for me.
Tom: So when you are there, Eva, you ever think that of yourself that your life might be in danger or you just are in working and you forget that?
Iva: Yeah. Wonderful question. Actually, I was thinking about this a lot. Cause when I'm working. I'm not, I don't, I'm not thinking about the fact that my life is in danger, but when I'm going there like by car, by train, or when I'm on the road and I understand that today I'm going to the dangerous place, and I have no idea if I'll come back.
And this is a very strange and strange feeling because I'm not afraid from the other one side. But from another side, this is something, I don't know, it's hard to explain because when you have this thought, it's literally something you would never like think you will have when you are working.
But yes, unfortunately I have it and I think it's good because that way you can, you realize what you're doing, and you understand that you're ready to take a risk. And you want to, to proceed working in this, despite of this fact of dangerous place.
Tom: I think it's a bit for another question we had. It's to do because you started documenting this because you felt like you needed to do it, for your country and for yourself and, to show other people what is going on.
I think photography is a very strong medium and when you're inside of it, you kind of put this to the back and then you start working. An do what you have to do. So yes, I understand.
Iva: Yes, because I remember when I started just documenting my country in state of war, there was a lot of emotions and that was really tough for me.
For example, I remember very first days of full-scale invasion and I went to the border, Ukrainian Polish border. I saw there like a lot of refugees who were trying to flee Ukraine to find a safer place. And there was like thousands of people there and like small children were crying, older people were losing their conscience.
It was like really kind of disaster when I saw this. And, like, these people were waiting on the queue to cross the border for, like, 20 hours. And it was winter, it was freezingly cold, but they were just standing and waiting to find some safer place. And I remember myself, these days this first day on the border I was just walking around and literally crying but then I realized that, like, my tears cannot help but my camera can.
And since then, then I realized that emotions, it's okay to have them, but I can now how to say, separate my emotions and my desire to work, to do something. Yeah. Cause otherwise I just can't.
Tom: Iva, can you tell us a bit about your approach in covering such a complex and personal emotional topics?
Iva: Yeah, that's a good question, because as for me to gain a personal approach is very important and I realized that when I just came to Kharkiv first time. It was like two months after full scale war began. I went to North Saltyko, this is like the biggest residential area. And there, like, almost each building was destroyed due to Russian bombing.
People were living in metro stations underground, and I remember I came there, and I realized I have to photograph this, but I also wanted not just to document what I see, I wanted to help somehow these people, like to give a hand. I don't know.
I was talking to them, and I was listening to them and I realized that this is important for them to be heard and they want to talk. So, for me I usually speak with people a lot. I'm trying to understand their feelings. And after that I began to photograph because I realized that the closer I became with people, the more meaningful and honest picture I will receive in terms of photography.
Also, in terms of just relations. When you talk to these people, you see them they see that you care about their life. And I, I hope it somehow help them, at least in this moment. And I totally agree with this phrase. I think you know this, that like you don't make a portrait of a person. It is the person who gives you this portrait and it works because when you talk to people, when you see that they are open to you and these people see that they can trust you will find that the picture will be really honest. It will have something behind, like the picture speaks for itself.
So, for my approach, it's very important to have some kind of connection with the people whom I photograph.
Tom: This was the change from your street photography to more documentary.
Iva: Exactly. Yeah.
Tom: And speaking now of people. You made an outstanding photography project called Holding Hope. Can you share a bit with our listeners what it's about and how it started out?
Iva: Sure. Thank you. Thank you for this. Yes, this project is about people who survive Russian occupation in different parts of mostly it's Eastern part of Ukraine. And for me, that was very important again to understand them because we all know all these horrible Russian crimes which are done towards civilians.
under occupation. And I wanted to talk to these people to understand what they feel, to at least somehow feel their pain because we are all in one country and we are somehow connected. And me who was never under occupation, and I didn't have this experience and I wanted to understand what this is about.
So, I went to these different villages and cities that have been under occupation for some time. Fortunately, they have been liberated or some are still under occupation. And I talked to these people, and I was making portraits of them. And next to each, I asked every person to write about themselves, memory of the occupation.
So, at the end, I have this project where we can see portraits and next to it are memories, handwritten memories. And I was surprised because when I was talking to them and asking to write something, almost everyone said that we don't know what to write, like, they were a little bit afraid why I'm asking this, you can write on your own because they didn't expect this at all.
But I was talking to them a lot, I explained why, explained why I'm doing this because I want to save their memories. Also, I hope it was kind of therapy for them, you know, when you are putting something on the paper, sometimes it helps you at least for a second. And then they started to write and usually they couldn't stop.
So, I understood that they have so much to say, and they want to talk, if you will listen to them. So that's why for me, this project is so important because it's not only about pictures, about their eyes, which we can see, it's also about something hidden, which usually we don't know. But with the help of this series, it helps me to understand them. To understand their pains, their feelings, and I hope that maybe it will help even those people who are still under occupation.
The project is called Holding Hope, that even being in such a horrible situation, there is the hope that everything will be fine. And these people also had this, and now it's okay. And I hope people who are still under occupation can see this project and also understand that everything will be fine in the end, and they will be free, liberated, and everything will be safe for them.
Dave: You've learned a lot about these people in doing your Holding Hope project. What have you learned about yourself while doing this?
Iva: Yeah, wonderful question. Let me think. I would say that when I photograph, I'm trying not just to be like a stranger who is doing this. I'm trying to feel myself as well.
Also in this project, when I was doing this, I was not sure if I would overcome this as they did, but I realized that very important to have this inner desire to believe that everything will be fine and everything can be fine. And that's the same with me, even though I'm not sure how I will react in such a situation.
But I realized that if these people could overcome this with some support of friends, then maybe I also can, and this is like a great example for me that people are much stronger than sometimes we think. And maybe me also. I don't know.
Tom: Eva, while making this project, I was curious, you have you have someone, or a story that you remember more than any other one? A special one?
Iva: I think all these stories were special, but in different ways. But yes, one comes to my mind, it's about a guy who is 19 years old. He wrote actually this on the paper in the village of Hrusheva is Kharkiv region.
They have been under occupation for the half of the year. And he wrote that when Russian troops came to their village, he started to count Russian tech equipment tanks and people. And with the help of his friend, he started to inform Ukraine, I mean from Ukrainian forces. And he started to give this information to the Ukrainian side in order to help.
And he wrote that each and every morning I was sitting next to the window and counting the equipment and people and putting down it on the paper and then writing over the phone to the friend. Each and every evening he was deleting and burning this paper because it was extremely dangerous and he was only 19 years old, but he kept doing it.
Something to help, you know, he was not afraid that he will be caught. Maybe he was, but he was still doing this in spite of everything. And again, this is, as for me, this is such a huge story. And he told me this story almost right away. And when I asked to write it, to put it down, he said: Oh, I don't know. I don't know what to write. I have nothing to tell. And then I said, just start. And he started and he wrote like two sheets of paper about this story, you know, and he was in the end saying thank you, thank you for giving me this opportunity to recall it, to understand it even better. So that's why, I don't know, taking into account that he was so young, but he was doing that much.
It's like something so special.
Tom: It’s really special. And when you find people like this, and they do things like that…that's amazing.
Iva, can you speak a bit to the importance of photography of bringing attention to important issues like the Russian Ukrainian war now and what photojournalism today brings in this?
Iva: Yeah, definitely. I think this war differs from any other war because you literally can watch it online thanks to photography and all these pictures which are taken, and which are shown to the world. This war is still here, it's happening, and people in Ukraine suffer from it.
For me it's very important to talk about this to people, to foreigners, to people abroad, because they cannot feel what we feel. Because they are far from it. But at least with the help of pictures they can understand what we are coming through. And I guess that it will be very hard to keep fighting without the help and support of pictures.
I'm talking about different kinds of support. It can be support of refugees, when you are just talking to the people, and you understand, I know that you have the war in your country, how are you feeling, and this will be a great help.
Or some humanitarian aid, medicines, financial support, like whatever everything helps. And in order for people to understand the importance of this help, I mean, people who are not here, not in Ukraine, it's very crucial to talk about this, to publish these pictures, to show it throughout. Cause I understand that people are a bit tired, I mean of this war and especially this full-scale invasion.
Maybe it's sad, but sometimes we got used to it, Ukrainians, foreigners whoever. And it's very important to still follow this and to show it and to document each and every day and to post new pictures and to talk about this, that now we still have this war, we still need help, and we appreciate your help.
So that's why for me the role of photojournalist nowadays in terms of war, it's very important. And that's why maybe I'm also not giving up and someone can say I am taking the same pictures. But it's not the same pictures, it's just the situation which lasts for so long. So, this is for me the possibility to tell people that this war is lasting, and we have to do something.
Dave: Iva, you're using photojournalism as a way to provide information. To those outside so that it stays relevant in their lives. I'm sure our listeners are curious. That's a big task. What kind of gear are you using in documenting the war and its effect on the people of Ukraine? Can you share what you're using and, and how?
Iva: Are you asking about equipment?
Dave: Yes. What kind of camera gear…You're taking these incredible photos and, you're right in the middle of things as they're happening. I'm sure that our listeners are curious, what kind of equipment are you using in a situation where you have to be able to capture key moments, but you also have to be flexible and be able to move?
Iva: Yeah, actually, I'm using Fujifilm cameras. So, I got used to this kind of equipment and now I have camera Fujifilm X S10. Which helps me, it's quite easy one. I mean, light to handle. I love the colors. They have a nice feeling. I can see …when I look at the pictures, it's just like, I feel this camera and camera feels me, I don't know how to say. And., I think it's not that important what equipment you use, it's like how you see the objects or what you're photographing.
But still, like, this camera helps me because I'm comfortable with it. Of course, honestly, honestly, I would be happy to have a little bit better equipment because it's quite a budget one, but as for now, I can afford this one and I'm still happy with this camera because it's really not expensive, but it gives you the result which you want to have.
Dave: Yeah, the tool is not the camera, the tool is the photographer behind the camera. You're proof of that.
There's one last question that we'd like to kind of wrap up today's conversation with you Eva on. For those who are already into documentary photography, what is one thing you recommend they should start doing and one thing they should stop doing and why.
Iva: I would say that it's very important to find your own approach because this way you will understand what you're looking for and why. And this will lead you to your own photography style. Which is not actually easy, but when you have like the approach, which you follow, it will help you to understand again, to understand what you're doing.
And as for me, this is very important because your personal approach will give something unique to your pictures and to your style in general.
But if you're talking about what it's better to stop doing, I have a great example. I would say, do not follow the crowd but go opposite direction. For example, I remember again, first days of full-scale invasion and I was photographing on the railway station when, where there was huge evacuation of people, like thousands of people. And I was working with Magnum photographer, Emin Özmen. And I just saw this picture when all of the people were waiting for the train. Photographers, refugees, everyone for this train which will take people from Lviv to Poland. And when finally, this train arrived, every person was running to the train to be able to go inside: people, refugees, together with photographers. And only Emin Özmen went the opposite direction. I honestly, I don't know what picture he took, but for me, I realized that this was kind of, again, a personal approach he used. He didn't want to copy pictures and to do just another picture that all the other photographers will make and he will find his own angle of view.
So, I would say that for me, it's very important to be creative. Even in documentary photography, it's important to be creative and to listen to yourself.
Dave: Boy, that's a wonderful point. And to go your own way with your own style.
Iva: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Tom: I just have a tiny question Eva. You have a military accreditation, yes?
Iva: Right. Yes.
Tom: Because I'm not sure if listeners understand how difficult this is. It's not that you jump in your car, and you go to the front line, because I suppose there are controls, and they won't let you pass. So how you go on when you want to shoot something there…how does it work?
Iva: Yeah, first of all, in Ukraine, it's very hard to photograph now, if you don't have accreditation, even for a regular photographer. I mean, not for a war photographer, but even when you're a landscape photographer, for example. It's hard to go on the street and photograph. Because you can be like suspicious to someone, which I understand because people are suspicious now because they are afraid a little bit and they are cautious.
And in order to photograph not far from the front line, you definitely should have accreditation. I would say it's not only about accreditation, but also your responsibility. You should understand that you risk your life. And you should be really good equipped yourself. I mean body armor, hamlet, and you should know how to use the medical stuff.
For example, I have taken two courses for three days each about first medical aid. And this is very important when you want to photograph in such places. You need to understand that this is really dangerous, and you should understand if it's worth it, and you should be ready and to know what you're facing and what you can do in this or that situation.
So accreditation, yes, I got it right away. As I said, I was working as a photojournalist before. So, I have a press card and I managed to get the military special accreditation of armed forces of Ukraine and proceed working in this topic this year.
Tom: If you go out shooting pictures, you can go alone or there will be always somebody with you?
Iva: It depends, because actually this year you could go with your accreditation almost everywhere. You just show the accreditation, and you can photograph. But now it's a little bit more difficult because the rules have changed, apparently, and now Ukraine is divided into different zones. I mean, let's say there is a red zone where photojournalists cannot unfortunately photograph, like on the front line for example.
Tom: Is this for safety?
Iva: It's mostly for the safety as they say, yeah, but unfortunately, they cannot also show what is going on in this areas. And as for me, that's a little bit sad cause what should photojournalists do? I think they should give the information.
But now there is another zone which is also not far from the front line. You could go there with the special permission and having a press officer with you.
But let's say liberated villages, which are little bit farther from the front line or where the situation is not that bad, you could go alone.
So I should get the special permission to photograph always. For example, in Kherson, I went just one week ago and I had to receive like hundreds of permissions before I could photograph there. But I understand that this is important cause for security reason and for safety reason. I only wish that the access is a little bit easier for the journalists now, cause as I said, it's very important to document everything. Each and every detail, cause in the future, it will be also evidence.
Dave: The realities are that no war lasts forever. And at some point, there's going to be a new path in front of you. What do you think after the war is over? What do you think is your photography future. Where is it you would like to take your photography journey next?
Iva: It's very hard. It's a very hard question because literally this war taught us to live one day to appreciate this one day and to do whatever you can. And I started living in this way and now I don't think about tomorrow much, just because we have such a reality. So, this is hard for me to answer this question, because I'm also questioning myself about this.
I understand that I changed a lot. My photography changed a lot. And what will be next? I don't know. I still want to focus on documentary practices, because for me, this is something very honest. I see myself in this, but from other sides, I also want to proceed working on my personal projects, maybe some art.
I don't know. That's very hard question. I'm thinking about this, but I don't have answer now because now I'm just doing what I, what I can do. And this is documenting the war, which is in my country now.
Dave: Well, as you say, you're living for today. Keep living and keep getting the most out that you can.
Iva: Thank you.
Dave: Anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners or add to what we've covered today?
Iva: I'm not sure, we covered a lot. Thank you so much for these questions and it will be a lot for me also to think after conversation. So, thank you for this.
Tom: Eva, one last thing: Can it be that you have dogs…you have two dogs?
Iva: They are my parents. They live with my parents these two dogs, but I love them. Yeah, they are so wonderful.
Tom: Because I thought it's maybe a bit of an emotional outlet, no? For your back to normal life a bit after.
Iva: Definitely, definitely. I would say that photographing in this reality and documenting, when I'm going to the East let's say, it's very difficult for me. And still, like when I'm working, I'm putting my emotions aside and now I know how to do this, I have this experience, but still, when I come back to my home place it's very difficult for me because then I start thinking what I just lived through.
Memories about people who told me their memories and all this information is in my head and it's…it's tough sometimes it's hard, but again, yes, it's like when you see your relatives, when you see your dogs, when you can just go for a walk in the woods, such very simple moments are very important nowadays.
And it also helps me to keep myself together because I know that I can just go for a walk, I can enjoy the rain, I don't know, whatever. I mean, also this war taught us, and especially me for sure, to appreciate very small things. Which in normal life I didn't pay attention to, and that I guess are important and I want to keep it with me in the future as well.
Tom: Of course.
Dave: Well said. Eva, thank you so much for your time, for your wonderful insights that you've shared with our listeners, for opening yourself up and relating what can only be described as a challenging and difficult situation, but your work is really, really powerful.
And I hope more people as a result of listening to this podcast are going to search out your work and find out where they can see what you're doing. And especially the holding hope project, that's a wonderful piece. Thank you so much.
Iva: Thank you and thank you for this opportunity to talk and to be heard. And this was a wonderful conversation and I appreciate this so much. Thank you.
Tom: So, we had a wonderful talk with Eva to start our new podcast adventure, with such an emotional journey of a young photographer who saw her life as a photographer change and by that also changing her way of documenting her own world.
Dave: I was blown away by what she said. I never really thought before about war documentary photography and how they go through it. She was amazing.
And I really think we did a great first episode. It's going to be hard to beat this, but we're going to try. Thanks everyone for listening. Don't forget to check out the show notes in the description where you can find out more about our guests and some links we've prepared for them, waiting for you.
If you're new to the show, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. We're in any of the major podcast listening apps. And maybe you can leave us a comment also. We'd really like to hear from you because it helps us a great deal to move this show forward. If you want to know more about us, check out our own links in the show notes as well, and consider maybe buying us a coffee or two so we can get fresh photography content out to you each month.
We leave you with a quote that seems custom made for today's discussion from the legendary documentary photographer Dorothea Lange: Photography takes an instant out of time, altering life by holding it still.
Thank you for listening today, now put down your coffee, pick up your camera, get out there and document life.